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Barnesy
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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 02:07:47 PM »

  Yep!

I wanted Lorraine to go instead. Im not happy!
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2009, 07:21:41 AM »

I noticed that in YF, Debra described Phil as "a lovely guy to work with".

Lorraine clearly didn't think so. Nor Kimberley.

So what was the difference? Here's my guess:

1/ Phil and Debra appreciated each other's down-to-earthness
2/ Phil and Debra are both jump-in-with-both-feet and do-something-now people. Lorraine is more of a let's-think-about-this-from-several-angles analyst, which irritated Phil. And Kimberley was a let's-take-everyone's-views-on-board person, which also caused what Phil saw as delays.
3/ Phil was comfortable with Debra's feisty fierce in-you-face business manner but not with Lorraine's somewhat reticent I've-come-to-a-decision-and-this-is-what-we'll-do manner.

Conclusion? Phil deserves huge credit for the Body Rocka, the most successful product designed in any series of the Apprentice.  But he is, as SAS opined in week 6, a bit set in his ways and needs to work in a manner that he's familiar with to get the best out of him. A future employer who could team him up with people who like working the way he does, and who could include in the whole process analyst-type people who Phil doesn't have to see very often, would do very well to hire him.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2009, 07:44:11 AM »

An estate agent is someone who has to repeat a series of processes over and over again.

Ingratiate yourself with clients, value a property and close contracts to buy or sell, write ads for the shop window and  the website, take the cheques round to the bank. The processes are repeated each week from age 18 to age 65 when someone takes them round the pub for the last time.

In The Apprentice there are new features in most tasks which are slightly different. Different teams, identifying the key factors from the tasks and the written rules and getting the team members to understand their importance. Anyone from any repeated process type role such as an estate agent or a pharmacist will find The Apprentice difficult unless they were in the wrong job in the first place. His personal problems with certain team members just compounded his problems.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 07:44:58 AM by mediastar » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2009, 01:36:47 PM »

That was a rather egalitarian list of options, JKK. I thought Philip didn't get on with Lorraine because he didn't rate her ability, and became impatient with her mistakes. I'd expect him to get on well with people like Debra, Kate and Yasmina, and even Howard, James and Ben, because they are the stronger candidates. So far as I can tell, Kimberly's problem with him was mostly that he was bickering with Lorraine; it was the pair of them together, rather than Philip alone. Had Lorraine not been there, she might have enjoyed working with him too.

I'm not surprised Debra said that. Philip generally has lots of energy, lots of ideas, is usually right, and seems to take on board criticism from others when he's wrong.

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Lorraine is more of a let's-think-about-this-from-several-angles analyst
Did you think so? I hadn't noticed. It seemed to me she latched onto ideas early and then wouldn't let go of them, even after their flaws had been pointed out and a better idea had come along.

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And Kimberley was a let's-take-everyone's-views-on-board person
That's how she tried to run the brainstorming. As I recall, she took a lot of control over the advert, and tried to influence Mona but had to give up.

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3/ Phil was comfortable with Debra's feisty fierce in-you-face business manner but not with Lorraine's somewhat reticent I've-come-to-a-decision-and-this-is-what-we'll-do manner.
Debra could be dictatorial, and so could Kate, but he gets on with those. Lorraine was simply a bad leader, but ironically on the task she leads, Philip keeps out of her way and doesn't really argue with her. She criticises, but generally after the fact, when it's too late to help.

Mediastar, I don't think Philip had any problem with the diversity of the Apprentice tasks. He was the one who read, understood and adapted to the selling rules on the 10 items task, for example, where Ben seems to get it wrong. In every task he identifies the key factors and their importance, at least as well as anyone else.
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2009, 02:03:54 PM »

I find myself reluctant to post in the forum this year as you usually express exactly what I am thinking but more eloquently.

I was completely disappointed at Philip's defence in the boardroom. He could have easily got Lorraine fired had he focused on his strengths, and the fact that they ultimately lost the task because of their product selection. To me Lorraine is the weakest candidate left and Philip was a potential finalist. He completely blew it with his impatience in the boardroom. 
 
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2009, 06:57:25 PM »

In task 7 the key point was that the candidates should have at least considered matching the products with the business contacts SAS had set up. Philip didn't realise that.

In week 6 the key point was that the candidates should have read the rules and figured out a strategy, which presumably would have included attempting to identify the high value items and decide which were worth trying to sell. Phil was team leader, didn't know what the rules said and just treated it as a traditional running round selling task.

In week 5, Philip had his pants idea and rammed it through by the force of his personality even though the concept had no coherence at all.

There are many reasons why any project goes wrong. The complexity of the task or say the capabilities of the participants. But in Phil's case he never got much of a grip on the best way to go and then could railroad the others into accepting whatever whim he had just had. His problems with individual team members was just a consequence of this, his wayward ideas and his inability to adapt to a fresh situation.

The reason Phil's team often lost was that Phil was in the team.
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2009, 07:42:37 PM »

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Lorraine is more of a let's-think-about-this-from-several-angles analyst
Did you think so? I hadn't noticed. It seemed to me she latched onto ideas early and then wouldn't let go of them, even after their flaws had been pointed out and a better idea had come along.

Good question. I admit I'm extrapolating a bit from what we've seen ... I don't have the feeling that I understand what makes Lorraine tick yet. Has she ever done a piece 'to camera' where she wasn't criticising someone else? (This is a serious question -- I'm trying to work out what drives her, and criticisms of others don't convey that).

[I'll copy this post into Lorraine's thread -- please post responses in that thread].
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 07:45:31 PM by jkk » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2009, 09:47:57 PM »

Phil deserves huge credit for the Body Rocka, the most successful product designed in any series of the Apprentice. 

Only successfull in the Apprentice imaginary-orders currency unit!
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2009, 09:51:52 PM »

Sugar was right, that BodyRocka went to his head. The guy thought he was a genius after that.
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2009, 11:13:07 PM »

In task 7 the key point was that the candidates should have at least considered matching the products with the business contacts SAS had set up. Philip didn't realise that.
First, neither did anyone else apparently, so that fits with him being at least as good at it as the rest. Secondly, he was on his best behaviour and so said hardly anything, so it's hard to tell if he did in fact disagree with the team's product choices for that reason. I thought he disapproved of the coat rack that Lorraine was keen on, for example, but he keeps his mouth shut and it's the others who shoot it down (especially Yasmina and Ben). (That's part of why he was so bitter in the boardroom; when he didn't fix other people's mistakes, they lost, and he got blamed.)

Quote
In week 6 the key point was that the candidates should have read the rules and figured out a strategy, which presumably would have included attempting to identify the high value items and decide which were worth trying to sell. Phil was team leader, didn't know what the rules said and just treated it as a traditional running round selling task.
I think he did understand the rules, specifically that they shouldn't sell items below value. Unlike Ben, his team does leave some items unsold - he knew better than to offload it for a pound like Ben was doing. There was the usual period at the start of valuing stuff, and in fact his team only undersold 2 items of the 10. He grouped the items into antique and modern, which was a reasonable strategy. His big mistake was not realising the rug could be high value, and he made that mistake partly from a personal reaction to Lorraine, who said the rug was an antique in very good condition, when it was clearly modern. He was wrong, but it had nothing to do with not understanding the rules. And of course he led the team to a win.

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In week 5, Philip had his pants idea and rammed it through by the force of his personality even though the concept had no coherence at all.
I disagree that he rammed it through. Kimberly was not a push-over. He had two other ideas, both of which were rejected, so we know she didn't accept ideas just because they came from him. We know the team considered at least 5 ideas, and Pantsman was simply the best of them. It did at least satisfy the brief, unlike Lorraine's, so although it wasn't his finest hour I don't think it's an example of him not understanding the rules.

It seems the reason they lost was that they spent a lot of time on an idea of Kimberly, only to be told at the last minute they couldn't use it. Hence Philip didn't get a chance to fully develop the pants thing or come up with something better. In summary, not his fault they lost.

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His problems with individual team members was just a consequence of this, his wayward ideas and his inability to adapt to a fresh situation.
Can you give an example of his failing to adapt to a fresh situation?

And he does get on well with most team members. It's invariably the weaker ones he has trouble with, and that's because they are slower to grasp the point than him and he gets impatient. His criticisms are generally spot on, and show that he does understand what the task is about.

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The reason Phil's team often lost was that Phil was in the team.
No, I don't think they lost any task for that reason. He was on the losing side only 3 times, actually. The first was the food task, which they lost because Rocky was terrible and pushed through the ridiculous toga party thing, which Philip had nothing to do with. He didn't found out about it until the end of the first day, by which time Rocky had already spent the money on it. The second task was the cereal advert, and if Philip hadn't been there they'd probably have gone with Lorraine's multiple characters idea, which would have lost even more badly because it was contrary to the client's brief and Sir Alan hate it when people don't pay attention to the brief. (See, eg, Ruth making exactly that mistake a few years ago.) Also, it would have meant producing 4 characters, which is 4 times as much work as producing 1, and they didn't even have time to do a good job of 1...

His third loss was the final one, selling to trade. They lost that because of bad product choice, and Philip kept out of that as far as we could see because he didn't want to argue with Lorraine when she was team leader. OK, he also failed to sell, but even if his half the team had sold as well as Lorraine's half did, they'd still have lost. Lorraine and Yasmina got £1302, so double that for £2604, and it's still nowhere near Mona's team's total of £4501. So, that one was clearly not his fault either. Also, his problem on that task was not friction with other team members, but that he got on with them rather too well.

All the other tasks he was on the winning team: tasks 1 (cleaning), 3 (fitness product), 4 (soap)  and 6 (10 items). On at least one of those he contributed the winning idea. I don't want to spend too much time criticising Lorraine on Philip's thread, but I don't think there is any task where you could say Lorraine's contribution is what won it. There are at least two where she was a major part of why they lost.

Although I think it was right that he be fired in the circumstances that arose, I also think he was a very strong candidate, stronger than many who are left in, and it's rather sad that he's gone. I'm looking at the other boys, Howard, James and Ben, and the field feels rather empty now.
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« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2009, 06:39:06 AM »

Quote
Both pushy and pea-brained, he’s almost overqualified to be an estate agent. Perhaps – thanks to his unshakeable faith in his own unsuccessful methods and point-blank refusal to listen to criticism – Philip will succeed Gordon Brown as Prime Minister. Unless, of course, the Labour Party is keeping the post free for that oh-so-persuasive chimp.

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« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2009, 07:19:06 AM »

Both Phil and Gordon Brown do have some similar personality traits. And Brown married his girl after he was in the public eye.
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« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2009, 03:39:42 PM »

Thankfully they look absolutely nothing like each other!
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2009, 05:47:21 AM »

Watching "The Apprentice: The Final Five", Lorraine and Phil both commented on the conflict between them. Lorraine said she was "baffled" by the fact that Philip found her so difficult to work with. Philip said "Working with Lorraine means you have to spend the whole time pride-swallowing".

I give much more credit to Philip than Lorraine here. I would say that, if there's one thing worse for a creative guy who likes his own ideas being told that he's wrong, it is being told that he's wrong without any better reason than "I feel they're wrong". Giving an explanation why the ideas are wrong shows more respect for the guy. Not giving an explanation can feel (to the guy) like a crude adult-to-child power-play: "Why is this a bad idea?" "Because I say so". So brownie points to Philip for realising that he cannot demand an explanation for Lorraine's decision, all he can do is swallow his pride; and nul points to Lorraine for failing to realise why she irritated Philip.
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2009, 03:09:23 PM »

^^ I completely agree. Many times Lorraine didn't explain properly or at all why she thought his ideas were bad, and often her own alternative suggestions were even worse or against the brief (on the advertising task for example, a terrible idea that meets the brief is much better than a wonderful one that doesn't meet it).
I would much rather work with Phillip than Lorraine I must say. I would have found her incredibly annoying to be alongside.
I personally liked the fact that Phillip was annoyed after his firing and called it a joke. I for one am sick of everyone saying 'thanks for a wonderful opportunity' and so forth after getting the chop
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